UPRISING OOC

[SavageBob]

Just so you know, the discussions on the FFG forums mostly agree that getting the weapon back should take 2-3 maneuvers. It's an assumption that the weapon falls at the target's feet (IOW, engaged with the target and easily picked back up). In almost all Hollywood shows, including Star Wars, we always see the weapon knocked into short range (always just beyond reach, forcing the guy to move to fetch it). Making a guy eat 2-3 maneuvers to get his weapon back (1 maneuver to move to engage with the weapon, 1 maneuver to pick it up, and perhaps a third maneuver if he had to disengage from someone first before moving to the weapon) is pretty darn good for something so cheap as 3 advantages.

I agree with this. If the disarm actually knocks the weapon away, it's too powerful for 3 Advantage. I agree with the folks who argue that the weapon should stay engaged with its owner and only take 1 maneuver to pick back up (which is what we've been doing in the PvP). If DS wants to run it that disarm also knocks the weapon away, I'm happy to choose something else for the Advantages rolled.

The rules abuse part comes in, as I previously stated, in that if you'd tried to do that intentionally (make a called shot on the weapon) your dice pool would have been considerably different (1 less blue and 2 more blacks). Not to mention requiring you to declare your intention ahead of time. To get it so cheap, and after the fact adding insult to injury, is abusive as hell. Yes, it's cinematic, but only because you have justify it as the result of a melee collision. A creative player (bending the rules in their favor) can justify damn near anything that they want. Doesn't make it any less munchkin-y. The rules make no distinction as to ranged or melee on disarming via spending advantages. So Poe could do the same damn thing with a 'trick' shot that misses. IRL it's impossible to knock a weapon out of someone's hands on a miss, and it's damned hard to do intentionally as you need really good aim.

Well, a called shot on the weapon would damage it, not just knock it away. But here we can agree to disagree. If it's not evident by now, I'm not a power gamer but much more of a storyteller. I'm going for cool here, not overpowering. But if the potentially abusive outweighs the potentially cool here, I'm happy to abide by DS's ruling and move on. No offense was ever intended toward you, of course.

IMO, allowing a disarm without a Triumph is a bad idea. It breaks game balance.

I've said my piece so I'll shut up now.

And I for one appreciate your feedback. I run things differently from you, as I've indicated, so I will also shut up now.

[DeepSpacer]

Work has been insanely busy tonight and I probably won't get home till 11 p.m.. Ugh...

Our tabletop group once had an encounter where three or four separate 3Advs disarm rolls were made in an encounter with 6 Stormtroopers. It was a comedy of errors. Ridiculous. I remember thinking, this can't be right!

The disarm mechanic is broke. To intentionally disarm an opponent is two setback dice and it must be declared before you roll. Yet, any run-of-the-mill attack can end up disarming someone....even when rolling 4 failures. Crazy.

I'll have to get the dice statistics Excel sheet out but I believe you are statistically better off going for a regular shot and hope for three advantages than you are making a disarm shot with two setback dice.

I tend to agree (in principle) that you have to at least hit the person (somewhere) in order to hit something they possess. That goes along with the principle that you must have one success to apply the effects of a Triumph to an opponent.

Besides that, the opponent has a weapon sling. If we were playing Pathfinder or some other system I am sure there would be extra numerical modifiers for every little thing to determine the outcome. But narratively, I suppose you could knock the weapon from his hand, but the sling gives you quick draw to rearm himself as an incidental. To snap the sling would imply that you've done damage to the weapon.

So, for this time you can do the rather ineffective disarm against this opponent. Or, you can spend the advantages another way.

[ShadoWarrior]

I tend to agree (in principle) that you have to at least hit the person (somewhere) in order to hit something they possess.

Thank you. I love a reasonable, sensible GM.

That goes along with the principle that you must have one success to apply the effects of a Triumph to an opponent.

Just because I'm a pedantic sort of fellow, I'll point out that the option to negate his defensive bonus should not require a hit. All depends on how the effect is described narratively. Does the target have to be physically impacted in some fashion to negate his bonus? Or is it enough that taking fire makes him nervous and he makes stupid decisions as to how he positions himself? This is a complicated issue because some armor provides a defensive bonus. Logically, this feature is silly, but that's the way the game designers made it. Armor IRL provides soak. It doesn't make you harder to hit unless it's camouflage (which doesn't make you harder to hit, per see, but harder to aim at).

[DeepSpacer]

All of this is why I like the narrative style of game. . Simply explain why it makes sense in the narrative fashion and then go with it.

[SavageBob]

I didn't know about the weapon sling. So we'll go with giving him a setback and on his next attack and passing 4 boosts to Kzar.

[ShadoWarrior]

You cannot pass 4 boosts with 6 advantage. You need 7 to do that, 8 if he's not the next PC to go. Most you can pass with 6 is 3.

[SavageBob]

I don't follow.

2 Advantage: Add Setback to the targeted character's next check.
1 Advantage (each): Add Boost to the next allied active character's check. Why can't I select this four times?

Totals 6. What am I missing?

[DeepSpacer]

2 Advantage: Add Setback to the targeted character's next check.
1 Advantage (each): Add Boost to the next allied active character's check. Why can't I select this four times? Totals 6. What am I missing?

Good topic! An area of conflict in FFG. The Spend Adv/Triumph chart is wildy inconsistent in what can only be used once and what can be used multiple times. Recover 1 Strain says "may be selected more than once". Pass To Next doesn't, but neither do most of the others. Does that mean none of the other can't be chosen more than once? So why put it there? It is confusing.

I wish there were developed answers or rules errata to make it more clear....but there aren't any I could find on the Forums. The game deliberately keeps things vague. Most GM's only allow pass next boost 1x, or they limit 2 dice received max. Otherwise, they say it becomes a "Boost Train" where no one does anything except pas 2-3-4-5 boost dice to the next person each time thinking it is the most efficient way to do things. Maybe it's technically correct, but it's not fun, creative, or narratively-friendly according to games they've run. The best advice given on the forums by developers is to find something better to do with the Advantages than pass fistfuls of boost dice.

One key component is jiving with the narrative. For example, say its the end of the combat round. Player A kills the last opponent, but there is an Adv to spend (or perhaps 4 Advs passed that way). He chooses "Pass Boost to Next" to player B, who would be next. No time limit is listed, technically. Player B intentionally does not make checks for a day or two and saves those passed dice for an opportune time. Rules-wise, it seems to work. Narrative-wise, it doesn't jive that a shot in combat yields boost dice to a Charm check a day later. It has to pass both tests, IMO.

My personal reading is that it applies only to the One Adv Option box. Of the five options in the One Adv Options box, two have variable costs, one says you can use it multiple times (implying the remaining two options are single-use). Shado only allows 1x use of it in his games. This is my first PBP game GM'ing. Even at my IRL table, we all concluded that you use that feature only 1x.

But I see where you are coming from and your experience with the SW FFG system is different than my own or Shado's on this point, so I won't forbid your desired action so long as you can explain it narratively, within reason. I think that's in the spirit of the game to work together (PC & GM). After all, if a PC group splits up I probably wouldn't let someone in one room passed boosts to someone in another separate room without a reason to explain how that happened. Kzar is going next, by default. Vesper advanced and threw some punches at (Brawled with) a Trandoshan. Kzar got whacked on the head with a baton and is about to react. Passing one die to someone, not a big narrative deal. Probably a "watch out!" to give that one boost. Passing 4 dice? I think it'd be something significant within the action to affect a 30-40% improved chance to succeed at something. I just ask that it reasonably fit the narration / action-sequence.

BTW, the Spend Chart is a suggestion. Something like knock over a drum of oil under the Weequay's feet isn't on the chart, but fits within reason. Feel free to be creative.

[ShadoWarrior]

Deep already covered this quite well in his post. He seems to agree with me that passing 1x more than once is abusive. Do you honestly think that popping 6 advantages and then passing all 6 as boosts to the next character (what he calls a "boost train", great term!) is reasonable (which you can do per a strict and literal reading of the RAW)? Just be thankful I'm actually more generous than most of the GMs on FFG. Many of them limit the number of passed boosts from advantages to 3 or even 2. I don't limit it. If you roll enough advantages you can trade them at 2-for-1, plus one use of 1-for-1. Narratively, and mathematically, passing 4 isn't all that different than 3. But my point is that per RAW you could pass 6. A line needs to be drawn somewhere. Rather than a cap I've chosen to add "limit 1" to the 1x entry. It's a cleaner solution to abuse than applying an arbitrary cap.

[SavageBob]

Ah, that explains why they removed the suggested limitations from the chart in Genesys. The devs said (in an interview, can't remember where) that they wanted to allow players and GMs to pick any options multiple times if they could justify it narratively. In this case, I'm all for being creative with Advantages rolled, but I was just trying to get past this one weird roll so we could move on! That was why I opted for the boost-pass, not to try to do something overpowered, so sorry if it came off as me trying to get by with something abusive.

So, things I think would make narrative sense:

1) The Trando Vesper attacked is knocked a bit off balance and suffers 1 SB on his next attack (2 Advantage);
2) Kzar notices how the tussle has given him an opening to counterattack one of the two Trandos, granting him 1 boost (1 Advantage);
3) The Trandos' attack has caught the eye of some bystander (perhaps spaceport security), who can attest to the fact that the Trandos started the fight (in case we have to make a statement afterward with the authorities) (3 Advantage?).

[DeepSpacer]

So, things I think would make narrative sense:
1) The Trando Vesper attacked is knocked a bit off balance and suffers 1 SB on his next attack (2 Advantage);
2) Kzar notices how the tussle has given him an opening to counterattack one of the two Trandos, granting him 1 boost (1 Advantage);
3) The Trandos' attack has caught the eye of some bystander (perhaps spaceport security), who can attest to the fact that the Trandos started the fight (in case we have to make a statement afterward with the authorities) (3 Advantage?).

Those all look great! Thanks for your understanding. I was also thinking that a nearby merchant is disrupted. I forgot to narrate that the Trandoshan's errant shots blew apart some nearby merchandise and building storefronts (with a merchant witness). That will play bigly in the events to follow.

[ShadoWarrior]

If the Weequay are engaged with Kzar then you rolled the wrong dice. An upgrade to a red is if you fire into someone else's melee. If you're shooting at someone in your face you get +1 purple with a ranged light weapon and +2 purple with a ranged heavy.

[DeepSpacer]

by ShadoWarrior » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:23 pm
If the Weequay are engaged with Kzar then you rolled the wrong dice. An upgrade to a red is if you fire into someone else's melee. If you're shooting at someone in your face you get +1 purple with a ranged light weapon and +2 purple with a ranged heavy.

1 Threat: lose benefit of prior maneuver.....no longer engaged.

I tried to narrate the Weequay passing through and past him. Sorry if that did not come across clearly. I saw it as too much momentum and they ran by Kzar.

[ShadoWarrior]

Probably just me. My ability to focus is seriously impaired while I'm sick, and it affects my reading comprehension. Sorry.

[ShadoWarrior]

Are we back to Lanna?

[DeepSpacer]

Are we back to Lanna?

Whomever the PC's decide to go first. I see no urgent need for anyone to go in a particular order. Plus, Lanna is MOST LIKELY the one to do the most damage to an opponent and drop one or more of them.

Still receiving +1 Boost from the Captain's Improved Inspiring Rhetoric.

[DeepSpacer]

@Shado....
By my count, you are missing a boost.
+1 Prone
+1 Cpt. Impr Inspiring Rhetoric
+1 Aim

I see only 2 Boosts rolled IC.

[SavageBob]

Dang. I forgot the Inspiring Rhetoric boost on Vesper's roll last round, too. Probably wouldn't have changed anything, except make the roll even more Advantage-heavy, but I'll remember this time!

[ShadoWarrior]

Actually, it was my aim boost that I forgot. Told you I wasn't thinking clearly.

Deep, I need to know if these guys are rivals or minions. It matters as far as how I spend the advantages. I have a '1' crit. Also, have you ever dealt with Sunder? Each usage drops a weapon one step: Minor, Moderate, Major, Destroyed. My question is what is the in-game effect of a weapon having "minor", "moderate", or "major" damage? The Sunder effect only costs 1 advantage and can be activated more than once per attack.

[DeepSpacer]

Actually, it was my aim boost that I forgot. Told you I wasn't thinking clearly.

Deep, I need to know if these guys are rivals or minions. It matters as far as how I spend the advantages. I have a '1' crit. Also, have you ever dealt with Sunder? Each usage drops a weapon one step: Minor, Moderate, Major, Destroyed. My question is what is the in-game effect of a weapon having "minor", "moderate", or "major" damage? The Sunder effect only costs 1 advantage and can be activated more than once per attack.

I didn't know which Boost you forgot. The Trans are Rivals, Weequay are minions. All wearing heavy clothing, no specific armors. I think I see that Sunder is a DIY effect....no rules for what it means. But I see that the Inferior Quality generates an automatic Threat. I'll say Minor is automatic 1 Threat, Moderate is auto 1F+1Thr, Major is 2F+2Thr, and Destroyed is cut in half. Perhaps adding Setback Dice is a somewhat equal effect, but we'll go with the Failures and Threats for now. Maybe come up with a solid solution down the road after there's more time to ponder such things. Trandoshans aren't good on Agility, anyways, so that'd gimp them pretty well.

[ShadoWarrior]

Edited the IC. He can retain hold of the weapon with his other hand, but I don't recall what the rules are for firing ranged heavy with only one hand. I'd look it up, but my concentration is starting to fade.

[DeepSpacer]

Kzar & Vesper go next.
Kzar is engaged with the remaining two Weequay.
Vesper is short range to everyone, not engaged. But, at 12/13 Strain from the stun blast.

Both receive Boost die from Inspiring Rhetoric.
No other modifiers currently in-play.

6 LS DP's, only 2 DS DP's. Now may be a good time to use them.

The battles teeters on the edge.

[ShadoWarrior]

I forgot to include her Feral Strength talent when I listed the damage the grievously wounded lizard took. He took 11, not 10. I doubt that extra point is enough to put him down, but you need to know to keep your records straight.

As for the battle teetering on the edge, not really. If Lanna hits that standing lizard on her next turn (at the top of round 3) he's done for. He's already taken some wounds (converted from 8 stun minus whatever his soak is, courtesy his inept companion) so another hit should finish him. Lanna does a minimum of 11 whenever she hits. I doubt he's got enough WT left to stay up after she goes after his sorry ass. The two Weequay are minions. Disposable speed bumps. I doubt they'll last much longer.

[SavageBob]

DS, I spent 2 Advantage on my missed attack to impose a setback on the Trando's attack. Probably won't cause his attack to fail, but it will affect how much damage Vesper takes and what Advantage the guy will have to play with.

[DeepSpacer]

He took 11, not 10.

Noted.

As for the battle teetering on the edge, not really.

I know. Adding some narrative drama. Still, we have one with about 8 wounds and another 2pts from being stunned out. Maybe "gritty" is the word.

@SavBob...factoring the SB in now. Thanks for the reminder.