Game systems

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DeepSpacer
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Re: Game systems

#26

Post by DeepSpacer » Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:29 pm

In Twilight 2013, would it be accurate to say that the Russians were at odds with Western European nations during ww3? And, might a collection of European military or civilian types be a good group to start with?

Would there generally be two types of survivors left? One type who might hope to survive and rebuild the world (i.e. war was a "lose-lose"), and a second type that wants to push forward to victory (i.e. the world is in a pile of shit, but let's just heap more on it.) I ask that because it seems like two general ways to look at things.

I'll try taking a look at things when I get a chance.

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Re: Game systems

#27

Post by ThreeBFour » Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:07 pm

I'll have to check out the system, before I say further. Although new systems can be fun to learn.

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ShadoWarrior
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Re: Game systems

#28

Post by ShadoWarrior » Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:17 am

DeepSpacer wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:29 pm
In Twilight 2013, would it be accurate to say that the Russians were at odds with Western European nations during ww3? And, might a collection of European military or civilian types be a good group to start with?

Would there generally be two types of survivors left? One type who might hope to survive and rebuild the world (i.e. war was a "lose-lose"), and a second type that wants to push forward to victory (i.e. the world is in a pile of shit, but let's just heap more on it.) I ask that because it seems like two general ways to look at things.

I'll try taking a look at things when I get a chance.
The 2013 setting has its own backstory as to what led to the nukes flying. The canon history begins in 2007 (bear in mind that the game was published in 2008). Russia invades Ukraine in 2010 (IRL they grabbed the Crimea and fomented a civil war in the eastern half of Ukraine in 2014, after having eaten chunks of Georgia in 2008 and being allowed to get away with it). Pakistan also suffers a civil war in 2010. Terrorists originating from Belarus bomb a target in France that causes immense damage and casualties. In late 2010 India seizes Kashmir. The stage is now set for bad things to come. In early 2011 Kim dies in N. Korea and S. Korea invades the north (this would never happen IRL) to commence reunification. France, having failed diplomatically to get Belarus to act on the terrorists it's harboring, sends in special forces to try to deal with them. Belarus downs the aircraft they were using and executes the survivors, sending France video of the killings. France in 2006, announcing a policy of responding to terrorist attacks with any forces including nuclear weapons, strikes terrorists camps within Belarus using a SLBM tipped with 6 MIRVs. The Russian navy hunts down and sinks the french sub. Over the rest of the year, tensions between France and Russia escalate. In late November Russia pressures Belarus to surrender to Russia. They do, and now all of Belarus is a part of Russia. On Dec. 1 Russia launches two SLBMs at France. Four of the 16 MIRV warheads create an EMP that renders everything electrical within 800mi. of Paris toast. This covers almost all of western Europe, including the U.K. Ireland, and most of Spain, Portugal, and Italy. The other dozen warheads obliterate Paris, Brest, Toulon, and several major French military installations. France responds with 3 dozen warheads aimed at Russia. The U.S. uses missile interceptors in Poland and the Czech Republic to knock down 75% of the missiles. The remainder go on to strike their targets in Russia. The rest of the EU negotiates with France and Russia to de-escalate and that's the end of the European war ... for the moment. Nuclear fallout causes the worst winter in over a century. In late February 2012 Russia invades Poland ... and they don't stop there, continuing west. I've been skipping all the major crap that's been going on in the rest of the world. But it's Chinese subs in August of 2012 that strike at the U.S. with almost 100 warheads. The USAF manages to knock down over three dozen, but the remaining five dozen destroy cities from coast to coast (including DC, Chicago, and LA). Things get worse from there around the world. 'nuff said.

In regards to survivors, there are three types: those that wish to be left alone by everyone, those that would like to rebuild, and those that want to seize as much power as they can.

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Re: Game systems

#29

Post by swrider » Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:54 pm

Looks like I can get the documents.
Are there any other places committed?

If not I think I would order the started or shadorun. Post apocalypse has never been my thing. If there are other players though then let's do it. The setting is not as important as the players and gm. I know we have a good gm and everyone who had posted here is a good player to play with.

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Re: Game systems

#30

Post by swrider » Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:24 am

Could you give us an idea of what the premade campaign is about. I had an idea, but I don't think it would fit into an overly military campaign.

The game looks like it could be interesting.

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Re: Game systems

#31

Post by ShadoWarrior » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:57 am

Rider Deepspacer and ThreeBFour have "nibbled" on playing in a TW2013 game. But, so far, I have firm commitments from no one. So nothing, including what game system, is set in stone. Yet. I will say this though: I'm really not comfortable as a first-time Shadowrun GM. It's a complex-to-learn and even harder-to-master game. I'd have to run a pre-made adventure in that setting to have any hope of not fucking things up beyond redemption. Fortunately, I believe there are quite a few for 5e (and of course the editions before that).

I wasn't going to be running a pre-made campaign for TW2013. In fact, no such thing really exists. Everytown isn't a campaign, it's a generic town. It's like having a mini-supplement on Mos Eisley: useful to a GM, but not a campaign in and of itself. Two of the Everytown PDFs are short adventures/hooks. Something that a GM can use supplementally or as the kernel/start of a campaign. The reason I asked that folks not read those PDFs isn't because of the town but rather the generic, unnamed NPCs that are provided.

Bear in mind that I'll run a game based on what the players want. My preference is eastern Europe, but if players want the USA or Timbuktu then that's what we'll do. If a player wants to play a character other than an active-duty military veteran, then I'll try to fit them in and work the game around them. If a player wants to play an Aussie in Europe, or a Russian deserter, then as long as that player can come up with a plausible backstory then I'll accommodate them.

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Re: Game systems

#32

Post by swrider » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:00 pm

Oh ok. The game offers a lot of freedom which can be difficult for a gm. I completely understand your hesitancy with shadorun. I feel the same way and apologize if it felt like I was pressuring that way.

As I said before it is more about the issues and gm than it is the game. I also realize that this probably won't start anytime soon as it will take a while to set up and develop.

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Re: Game systems

#33

Post by ShadoWarrior » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:46 pm

What's difficult for me in Shadowrun isn't the game's "freedom" (which is a function of the setting and genre). It's the same thing that makes it daunting for guys like kanila: rules that are complex, refer to other rules in ways that aren't clear, and a rules book that is lacking in clearly-explained examples. One such thing that I recall from the last time I looked at 5e (which was about a decade ago) is that there are characters shown as examples during the creation process, but for some of them it isn't sufficiently clear how those characters were built. Way back when I used those examples to build a character for a PbP game I had joined only to have the GM tell me that I didn't do it right and I had to rebuild my character from scratch (unlike with FFG where a player may have messed up how many points were available or spent). You know me well enough that I'm a fairly smart guy with a better-than-average reading comprehension skill. If I can't get it right imagine how hard the system must be...

Most people new to FFG may do a few, minor, things not entirely correct. But with SR there are many things that aren't clear (and I'm talking about basics, not just things subject to GM discretion). So if I'm not 100% clear on how character creation works as a player, it makes it all the more difficult if I'm supposed to be the GM. Of course as the GM doing it "wrong" is akin to playing with house rules, albeit inadvertently. But it gets awkward if everyone's been doing it one way for months and later on someone discovers by reading some other forum that we've been doing it all wrong.

With regards to Twilight 2013, I could be ready to go in just a couple of days. I've run the system before, and I'd just have to refresh myself. What will take considerable time is getting the players familiarized with the system and their characters created.

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Re: Game systems

#34

Post by swrider » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:59 pm

Yeah, the character creation seems simple if you do it in the right order but also difficult to work to through.

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Re: Game systems

#35

Post by swrider » Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:35 pm

So I'm pictureing like a hillbilly or cultist type. Someone who already lived off the land and hunting in the middle of no where. You know the one guy who didn't realize that anything had happened, for a while after it did.

(" Hey ma, I caught me a rabbit with three ears" ).

I know radiation doesn't do that.... To much time working in the field but it is still funny.

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Re: Game systems

#36

Post by ShadoWarrior » Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:07 pm

3-eared wabbits are something you'd find in the first post-apocalypse RPG: Gamma World. That was the third RPG system I ever played (1st: Traveller, 2nd: AD&D).

Honestly, I don't see how you'd find that sort of character in eastern Europe (if we play there). In the U.S. it'd be no problem. BTW, a hillbilly or cultist type would still need a background. You don't suddenly sprout up in the woods, you go there after having done something else and acquired skills. Such as having been in the military. :P

Unless you're one of those peace-loving new-age commune-living types. Who don't typically have firearms. Or a rancher/farmer type who's never been anywhere outside the county they were born in.

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Re: Game systems

#37

Post by swrider » Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:28 pm

Just a concept I don't know much about eastern Europe.

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Re: Game systems

#38

Post by ShadoWarrior » Sun May 03, 2020 5:36 am

*bump*

Been a week-plus and nothing. @DeepSpacer, @ThreeBFour, are either of you guys interested enough in Twilight 2013 to give it a try? @swrider, have you had any time to look at the system some (more)?

Sup, guys? I'm not moldy: I don't thrive when kept in the dark.

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Re: Game systems

#39

Post by DeepSpacer » Sun May 03, 2020 6:48 am

I think I'd be up for it if we had a solid 3-4 players. RL has taken a few players down a notch in availability in 2020. I browsed through the character sheet, stats, creation, combat, resolving dice rolls, .... I hesitate that it seems like a lot of details go into equipment and managing one's gear (i.e. survival stuff). Not my strong suit in RPG's. If I have to look up too much gear and keep track of it, then it isn't fun for me. My first inclination was to play a character not good with that stuff.... a paper-pusher, a tech-guy, a mechanic, a driver, a hunter, .... Someone driving between cities when it went down? I doubt I have the familiarity in military life to play a career military type of character.

I think that it is more interesting to play in Europe, and I agree that it'd be incredibly difficult NOT to know what's going on (i.e. play a hillbilly type). Is 'Eastern' Europe a necessity? How about Western Europe? England? France? Germany? So France-Russia de-escalated and then Russia invaded Poland, so I guess "the Front" is in Eastern Europe? We're picking up there?

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Re: Game systems

#40

Post by ShadoWarrior » Sun May 03, 2020 9:01 am

The game can be set pretty much anywhere. Eastern Europe is the developers' intent, but it's not mandatory. One of the reasons it's the preferred setting is that a play group will need to have foreign languages (and preferably several of them) to be able to understand the locals. Lots of locals won't speak English in that setting. In Western Europe most people know English, since English is a requirement (rather than just an elective) in their secondary schools. Another reason is that the concept is/was centered around a group of characters that were serving in frontline combat units when the nukes dropped. IOW, army/marine/air force types in Poland or the Czech Republic who were fighting the Russians. (It's hard to justify a navy type character on land in that setting. Not impossible, just difficult.) If the game gets set in Western Europe then you lose the ability to have PCs run across Russian stragglers. Unless the GM drastically alters the backstory to have the Russians penetrate a LOT further west than in the canon history. (It's not just a simple handwave, as such an alteration would have all sorts of ramifications in the game.)

Bear in mind that I did say that if the players wanted the game set within the U.S. I could accommodate that. In fact that's a lot easier (for me) than setting it in Western Europe. Players would lose the chance to run across Russians or need to know so many languages. You might, however, run across Chinese troops depending on if the game is set west of the Rockies, or Mexican troops or drug cartel forces if set in the southern U.S.

No matter where the game is set players will always have local warlords to contend with. It's highly-trained professional military opponents (and the gear that they'll have) which you may not get to encounter if the game is not set within a limited number of locations in the post-war world. For example, if players aren't in Eastern Europe then you won't run across Russian-built vehicles or Russian small arms (except in the hands of drug lords in the southern U.S.). Back when I played/GMed Twilight 2000 I had play groups that started with their own M1 Abrams or M2 Bradley (I don't recall if that's still an option in Twilight 2013). Slim chance that would happen if a game were set someplace other than where the front lines were.

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Re: Game systems

#41

Post by ThreeBFour » Sun May 03, 2020 2:04 pm

Sorry @ShadoWarrior I meant to reply previously. I'm going to decline. The Rifts PbP I've already been doing on FB is taking more time than I expected.

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Re: Game systems

#42

Post by DeepSpacer » Sun May 03, 2020 5:31 pm

Well, that looks like "not for now" with just me and swrider being interested. My feeling is that with the learning curve so steep, unless someone begins with us it would be difficult to graft someone in later. Looks like creation process will take some time in of itself. Two ( it seems) would be possible, just not preferable.

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Re: Game systems

#43

Post by swrider » Sun May 03, 2020 7:29 pm

ShadoWarrior wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 5:36 am
*bump*

Been a week-plus and nothing. @DeepSpacer, @ThreeBFour, are either of you guys interested enough in Twilight 2013 to give it a try? @swrider, have you had any time to look at the system some (more)?

Sup, guys? I'm not moldy: I don't thrive when kept in the dark.
Thought I had said so. I am good enough to go, though as deep space behind it will take me a bit to learn the system. Doesn't sound like the other two are in though.

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Re: Game systems

#44

Post by ShadoWarrior » Sun May 03, 2020 8:21 pm

We'll have to shelve this until we can at least one more player (so that Deep will join in). The number of GM NPCs I'd have to run, or extra characters that you'd have to play, so as to have a viable starting party makes things more complicated than I'd care for at present. There are a number of critical skills that have to be present and you just can't do that with a solo character.

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Re: Game systems

#45

Post by swrider » Mon May 04, 2020 3:00 am

Ok. When the time comes I'll most likely be in.

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